Game Of Thrones (HBO Series + Books) *Spoilers Within

General discussion, shows, and everything else.

Postby Frederik » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:40 pm

Heathenist wrote:
Nothing really surprises me anymore after watching with someone a few weeks ago that didn't know who Bran was by name. A person that had seen every episode up to that point. So I guess it shouldn't be surprising that a large number of people just don't see all the obvious signs that Stannis is a fucking Cornell graduate who'd been brainwashed by the red woman into believing he was fucking Azor Ahai.


I actually think it's the Book purists who have the hardest fucking boner for him. They're going to lose their minds if Stannis loses the Battle of Ice in TWOW.
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Postby Heisenberg » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:50 pm

I felt the show did a good job making stannis out to be an asshole. I think early on Renly even says something to Ned stark like "no one wants stannis as king." I even felt like Ned didn't want him to be king but was so honor-bound that he had no choice but to make it so.
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Postby judge smails » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:40 pm

Frederik wrote:
Heathenist wrote:
Nothing really surprises me anymore after watching with someone a few weeks ago that didn't know who Bran was by name. A person that had seen every episode up to that point. So I guess it shouldn't be surprising that a large number of people just don't see all the obvious signs that Stannis is a fucking Cornell graduate who'd been brainwashed by the red woman into believing he was fucking Azor Ahai.


I actually think it's the Book purists who have the hardest fucking boner for him. They're going to lose their minds if Stannis loses the Battle of Ice in TWOW.

Basically. He died well though. "Go on. Do your duty." Those last words are hard af. Respek. Same goes with Alliser Thorne. He was a rude, thoughtless little pig, but you gotta respect how he died.
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Postby judge smails » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:47 pm

Heathenist wrote:
jobless wrote:
BronyTom wrote:Could Arya kill Jamie when he comes north, take his face, go south and kill Cersei? It's still her younger brother in a sense that kills her


This is a theory I had that I hate enough that these show runners are probably going to do it. Though who knows because it seems they've given all characters impenetrable armour and don't have the gall to kill of a loved character ever again, and probably will end with a dragon vs dragon battle and the Knight King just dying and everyone living happily ever after


This. There hasn't been a gut wrenching death of a major fan favorite character since Hodor in Season 6 Episode 5. And the last one before that was probably Barristan in Season 5 Episode 4.

Looking at the previous seasons:
Season 4:
Oberyn
Pyp
Grenn
Ygritte
Jojen
Shae (maybe, at this point she probably wasn't well liked, but it was still a heartbreaking moment)

Season 3:
Jeor
Catelyn
Robb
Talisa

Season 2:
Yoren
Rodrick
Renly
Luwin

Season 1:
Jory Cassel
Robert Baratheon
Syrio
Drogo
Ned


So basically an average of 4-5 deaths of major characters that were well liked per season. This season there has been three if you count Thoros, Olenna, and Viserion (the last two are a stretch). And last season it was maybe two if you count Osha (plus the obvious Hodor). But it's clear that the writers have lost all courage to kill off well liked major characters and it makes the show so much more predictable. Add this to the fact that much of this season was admittedly written like fan fiction, it makes me think the only possible ending is a really cheesy predictable good guys win and Jon and Dany living happily ever after with their children. I really hope that isn't the case. But it seems inevitable at this point. Unless they were just saving a ton of major character deaths for next season, but at that point it just seems too late because now we are all expecting a bunch of deaths.

God Shae was the worst. I felt for Tyrion, but she was just a greedy, rotten person. Personally, I never liked her, but your point is valid. I would count Olenna as beloved, since people love smartass old ladies, and Tywin as well to a degree since he was an absolute boss and probably the single most capable person on the show.

But what are the options for how this ends? I have to think either Jon or Dany will not survive. No way they both make it. I think Tyrion is gonna die too.
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Postby I gave you power » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:41 pm

Do the people bitching about no liked characters being killed realize there are, like, four of them left in the show?

Everyone loves Tyrion, Jon and Arya.. most like Dany and Jaime.. that's about it. Everyone else is dead. Little easier to kill likable characters off in seasons two and three when you have 15 likable characters left to spare.
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Postby I gave you power » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:42 pm

Tormund and the Hound too, I know, but neither are in any way central to the story.
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Postby jobless » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:06 pm

(spoilered cause Im not tryna clutter the thread with whining, just clarifying myself to IGYP and giving my opinion on it)

Spoiler: show
Brienne, Bron, Pod, Sansa, Greyworm, Missandei, (I guess), Theon (instead of going off on this redemption plot point that is guaranteed to be lackluster at best), Varys, fuckin JORAH is still alive. Its not that its hard to kill them off because few are left, its because it would complicate their story they are working and they want it as simple as possible for better or worse (and my vote is on for worse).

Its not a complaint that they havent killed people off because the show being all about people dying can become contrived and predictable too. Its more that theyve teased it and done none, and that after the whole season was said and done, it seems they will probably be moving away from that darkness a bit.

As soon as the show runners took the reigns its been mostly winning for the good guys, which can be refreshing after watching the bad guys win so long, but it really just feels thats where they want it to go now, towards a happy ending with little conflict.
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Postby judge smails » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:44 am

The way I see it this season was largely setup for the final season. What actually happened this season? Some fat was trimmed cutting out Dorne and the Tyrells, some tenuous alliances were formed, and Jon hooked up with his aunt. Everything else was pretty inconsequential in the larger scope of "the war for the dawn." Having said that, it's possible D&D are saving high profile deaths for the final season, where they can create maximum emotional impact by creating some martyrdom.
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Postby Heathenist » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:50 am

judge smails wrote:The way I see it this season was largely setup for the final season. What actually happened this season? Some fat was trimmed cutting out Dorne and the Tyrells, some tenuous alliances were formed, and Jon hooked up with his aunt. Everything else was pretty inconsequential in the larger scope of "the war for the dawn." Having said that, it's possible D&D are saving high profile deaths for the final season, where they can create maximum emotional impact by creating some martyrdom.


I mean, the White Walkers got a dragon and broke down the wall.
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Postby judge smails » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:39 am

At the very end of the season leading into season 8. I maintain it's setup for what's to come.
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Postby Rowan » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:10 am

Heathenist wrote:
Rowan wrote:You wanna include Ned Stark in that list of beloved characters or not?

Lol I legit thought I typed it out.

:smt002
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Postby Rowan » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:13 am

Heathenist wrote:
Frederik wrote:
dank wrote:Blowing up Margery doesn't count? And even if he died off screen, a lot of people are still mourning Ser Pounce.


Stannis also bit it later in season 5 and he might have the biggest fanboy following in the series. You could make the argument for Roose and Ramsay as well.

Was Stannis actually a well liked character? I was happy to see him die. And Ramsay and arose don't count because they were "bad guys". Same with Margery or any Tyrell other than Olenna, I don't see her as a well liked character. Not in the same way as Arya, Jon, Dany, Jorah, Davos, the Hound, Jaime, etc.

Maybe I'm just not in touch with the casual viewer though.

Stannis, Ramsay and Roose get no love from me but I definitely was a Margaery fan!
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Postby alchemist » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:12 am

jobless wrote:its been mostly winning for the good guys, which can be refreshing after watching the bad guys win so long


In their defense the original title for the final book in the series was A Time for Wolves but GRRM thought it was too spoilery. We are clearly into that content now, albeit a different version. The Starks were always bound to reunite and start kicking everyone's ass at some point. GRRM did say that the ultimate ending would be bittersweet, so I do expect several of our "good guys" to bite it next season.
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Postby ChangexofxIdeas » Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:07 pm

This week has been real busy but hopefully I'll get to post some more TL,DR stuff in the next 24 hours.
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Postby Killedbyschool » Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:14 pm

George Rr Martin kills characters when it is narratively important. No real reason to start offing characters at this point except for needless shock value.
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Postby scotts » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:54 pm

I don't know about shock value but it would at least open up the possibility of suspense in a situation if you actually thought something might happen. A lot of tension is lost when they get saved the way Jon has.
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Postby jobless » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:45 pm

Scotts nailed what I meant. I didnt want a bunch of needless deaths, but much of the plot points I hated this season came from everyone being so damn safe. I dont feel like there was much threat this season of anything but beyond the wall, so it lacked any real tension ever imo
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Postby jobless » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:46 pm

judge smails wrote:The way I see it this season was largely setup for the final season. What actually happened this season? Some fat was trimmed cutting out Dorne and the Tyrells, some tenuous alliances were formed, and Jon hooked up with his aunt. Everything else was pretty inconsequential in the larger scope of "the war for the dawn." Having said that, it's possible D&D are saving high profile deaths for the final season, where they can create maximum emotional impact by creating some martyrdom.


Look at us, we are finally agreeing on things


(just joking I often agree with many things you say on this board :smt008: )
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Postby Heathenist » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:02 pm

scotts wrote:I don't know about shock value but it would at least open up the possibility of suspense in a situation if you actually thought something might happen. A lot of tension is lost when they get saved the way Jon has.


jobless wrote:Scotts nailed what I meant. I didnt want a bunch of needless deaths, but much of the plot points I hated this season came from everyone being so damn safe. I dont feel like there was much threat this season of anything but beyond the wall, so it lacked any real tension ever imo


This
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Postby judge smails » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:31 am

jobless wrote:
judge smails wrote:The way I see it this season was largely setup for the final season. What actually happened this season? Some fat was trimmed cutting out Dorne and the Tyrells, some tenuous alliances were formed, and Jon hooked up with his aunt. Everything else was pretty inconsequential in the larger scope of "the war for the dawn." Having said that, it's possible D&D are saving high profile deaths for the final season, where they can create maximum emotional impact by creating some martyrdom.


Look at us, we are finally agreeing on things


(just joking I often agree with many things you say on this board :smt008: )

It's 2017,my president is a reality star and I'm agreeing with jahbless. These must be the end times haha
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Postby neil_morrissey » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:04 pm

judge smails wrote:
jobless wrote:
judge smails wrote:The way I see it this season was largely setup for the final season. What actually happened this season? Some fat was trimmed cutting out Dorne and the Tyrells, some tenuous alliances were formed, and Jon hooked up with his aunt. Everything else was pretty inconsequential in the larger scope of "the war for the dawn." Having said that, it's possible D&D are saving high profile deaths for the final season, where they can create maximum emotional impact by creating some martyrdom.


Look at us, we are finally agreeing on things


(just joking I often agree with many things you say on this board :smt008: )

It's 2017,my president is a reality star and I'm agreeing with jahbless. These must be the end times haha


And there was a time in this country, a long time ago, when reading wasn't just for fags and neither was writing. People wrote books and movies, movies that had stories so you cared whose ass it was and why it was farting, and I believe that time can come again
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Postby Darchitect » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:39 pm

I have a question: how did Sansa figure out all that stuff about LF? Maybe I missed it in the episode.
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Postby Killedbyschool » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:44 pm

We're presuming it was Bran that told her.
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Postby bricksandbones » Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:04 pm

There was apparently a deleted scene where Sansa goes to Bran and asks him about LF and Bran fills her in on everything. Not sure why that wouldn't have made the final cut.
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Postby lewdson.v2 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:09 pm

bricksandbones wrote:There was apparently a deleted scene where Sansa goes to Bran and asks him about LF and Bran fills her in on everything. Not sure why that wouldn't have made the final cut.



Yeah it's weird they didn't include it.

Here's a cool video that breaks it down for anyone interested.

Spoiler: show
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Postby Frederik » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:09 am

I think they didn't include it because it makes Sansa look weak and kind of dumb. They really wanted to portray her as a perhaps the most competent ruler in Westeros and a master politician that learned from the best (Cersei, Tyrion, Olenna, LF). I think having the audience believe she was playing LF the entire time serves that purpose better.
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Postby judge smails » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:09 am

Yeah there was that deleted scene, but I like to think that after x number of years Sansa picked a few things up from LF, and realized he was being a total piece of shit again. Bit IDK. Maybe D&D felt like she still needed things spelled out. In any event they ran out of time and Sansa demonstrated she's capable of learning.
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Postby lewdson.v2 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:04 am

Frederik wrote:I think they didn't include it because it makes Sansa look weak and kind of dumb.



Seriously.
Especially given the fact that the actor who plays Bran said that Sansa was having actual thoughts of killing Arya?
What the actual fuck?

That kind of pissed me off knowing she couldn't figure out LF's big flaw in that whole mind game scene in which he's suggesting Arya wants to be lady of winterfell.
We all know, including Sansa, that Arya has never wanted any sort of "royal" life; she's always wanted to be a warrior and her own damn sister couldn't remember that?
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Postby donnie_d3 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:02 pm

anyone else rooting for the night king?
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Postby judge smails » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:44 pm

lewdson.v2 wrote:
Frederik wrote:I think they didn't include it because it makes Sansa look weak and kind of dumb.



Seriously.
Especially given the fact that the actor who plays Bran said that Sansa was having actual thoughts of killing Arya?
What the actual fuck?

That kind of pissed me off knowing she couldn't figure out LF's big flaw in that whole mind game scene in which he's suggesting Arya wants to be lady of winterfell.
We all know, including Sansa, that Arya has never wanted any sort of "royal" life; she's always wanted to be a warrior and her own damn sister couldn't remember that?

Well it all came out in the wash. That would have been super disappointing had they put that in the show.
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Postby ChangexofxIdeas » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:52 am

judge smails wrote:
lewdson.v2 wrote:
Frederik wrote:I think they didn't include it because it makes Sansa look weak and kind of dumb.



Seriously.
Especially given the fact that the actor who plays Bran said that Sansa was having actual thoughts of killing Arya?
What the actual fuck?

That kind of pissed me off knowing she couldn't figure out LF's big flaw in that whole mind game scene in which he's suggesting Arya wants to be lady of winterfell.
We all know, including Sansa, that Arya has never wanted any sort of "royal" life; she's always wanted to be a warrior and her own damn sister couldn't remember that?

Well it all came out in the wash. That would have been super disappointing had they put that in the show.


Since they're messing around with the show being almost feature length already completed scenes getting dropped has nothing to do with runtime, but only pacing and quality. This had to be a case where they saw it in the editing room and realized it would have made a solid season finale significantly shittier.
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Postby Frederik » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:46 am

donnie_d3 wrote:anyone else rooting for the night king?


My money is on Sansa and Tyrion rebuilding the realm.
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Postby Marioisthereason » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:49 pm

http://m.ign.com/articles/2017/09/04/a- ... rtins-plan

In an early draft of the novels GRRM initially intended for Jon and Ayra to fall in love
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Postby theXdXman » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:10 am

i can understand peoples' gripes about character deaths being teased, but not happening. however, i'm alright with the lack of deaths. i don't see what the problem is. the good guys are finally gaining some traction here, in a series where the vast majority of it has seen the bad guys come out on top. just because the fucking red wedding didn't happen this season, doesn't make the season a dud. a fucking dragon died! one of the 3 only dragons was merked! the scene was totally gut wrenching, and-up until about 10 second before it happened-i had no clue the NK was going to kill the dragon. that was a pretty huge death. plus, oleana and little finger were killed! those are pretty significant deaths and characters.

let's say we stick with the roughly 4 deaths per season, and for arguments sake jorah was killed off. is that going to really have that much of a profound affect on your opinion on whether or not the season was good?

i think people are ragging on this season because it wasn't another season where the starks get fucked and something happens that ultimately sees the villains get the upper hand. there were some seriously incredible moments for this season, and i thought it was really great.
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Postby xXxBretWeedxXx » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:30 am

The biggest disappointment this season was the Arya/Nymeria reunion. Shit way to spare the Direwolf budget and close a chapter that's been highly anticipated. I just want more fucking Direwolves doing badass shit and less pointless dying.
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Postby judge smails » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:38 am

I'll preface by saying I enjoyed the season for the most part, and I don't mind that we didn't lose "good guys" (unless you count Olenna and the sand snakes as good), but to me some of the plotlines didn't make much sense. It's almost like the writers got together and said "we need to get a dragon north of the wall for the night king, how do we do it?" And then we get the convoluted plotline of the a team going north so dany can save them. It just felt kind of forced and clunky.
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Postby Frederik » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:45 am

the suicide mission beyond the wall was definitely my biggest gripe of the season. I thought everything up to episode 6 was pretty solid and Spoils of War is probably one of the top 5 episodes of the series.
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Postby theXdXman » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:14 am

judge smails wrote:I'll preface by saying I enjoyed the season for the most part, and I don't mind that we didn't lose "good guys" (unless you count Olenna and the sand snakes as good), but to me some of the plotlines didn't make much sense. It's almost like the writers got together and said "we need to get a dragon north of the wall for the night king, how do we do it?" And then we get the convoluted plotline of the a team going north so dany can save them. It just felt kind of forced and clunky.


i can see that argument. how could they have tried to get cersei to side with them otherwise?
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Postby xXxBretWeedxXx » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:17 am

theXdXman wrote:
judge smails wrote:I'll preface by saying I enjoyed the season for the most part, and I don't mind that we didn't lose "good guys" (unless you count Olenna and the sand snakes as good), but to me some of the plotlines didn't make much sense. It's almost like the writers got together and said "we need to get a dragon north of the wall for the night king, how do we do it?" And then we get the convoluted plotline of the a team going north so dany can save them. It just felt kind of forced and clunky.


i can see that argument. how could they have tried to get cersei to side with them otherwise?



Roast her ass and move past it.
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Postby judge smails » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:10 am

xXxBretWeedxXx wrote:
theXdXman wrote:
judge smails wrote:I'll preface by saying I enjoyed the season for the most part, and I don't mind that we didn't lose "good guys" (unless you count Olenna and the sand snakes as good), but to me some of the plotlines didn't make much sense. It's almost like the writers got together and said "we need to get a dragon north of the wall for the night king, how do we do it?" And then we get the convoluted plotline of the a team going north so dany can save them. It just felt kind of forced and clunky.


i can see that argument. how could they have tried to get cersei to side with them otherwise?



Roast her ass and move past it.

Pretty much. It seems wildly out of character for Cersei to agree to anything with Dany, regardless of circumstance. Tyrion would have known that.
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Postby xXxBretWeedxXx » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:13 am

judge smails wrote:
xXxBretWeedxXx wrote:
theXdXman wrote:
judge smails wrote:I'll preface by saying I enjoyed the season for the most part, and I don't mind that we didn't lose "good guys" (unless you count Olenna and the sand snakes as good), but to me some of the plotlines didn't make much sense. It's almost like the writers got together and said "we need to get a dragon north of the wall for the night king, how do we do it?" And then we get the convoluted plotline of the a team going north so dany can save them. It just felt kind of forced and clunky.


i can see that argument. how could they have tried to get cersei to side with them otherwise?



Roast her ass and move past it.

Pretty much. It seems wildly out of character for Cersei to agree to anything with Dany, regardless of circumstance. Tyrion would have known that.


Even after getting the wight it still seems like that should have been the plan. Cersei is the least trustworthy person in the 7 Kingdoms and that is saying a lot. Elliminate the 1st war and focus on the 2nd, real war. The whole, keeping a good face with the common people for not burning down King's Landing thing is a mummer's farce anyways.
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Postby theXdXman » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:48 pm

xXxBretWeedxXx wrote:
judge smails wrote:
xXxBretWeedxXx wrote:
theXdXman wrote:
judge smails wrote:I'll preface by saying I enjoyed the season for the most part, and I don't mind that we didn't lose "good guys" (unless you count Olenna and the sand snakes as good), but to me some of the plotlines didn't make much sense. It's almost like the writers got together and said "we need to get a dragon north of the wall for the night king, how do we do it?" And then we get the convoluted plotline of the a team going north so dany can save them. It just felt kind of forced and clunky.


i can see that argument. how could they have tried to get cersei to side with them otherwise?



Roast her ass and move past it.

Pretty much. It seems wildly out of character for Cersei to agree to anything with Dany, regardless of circumstance. Tyrion would have known that.


Even after getting the wight it still seems like that should have been the plan. Cersei is the least trustworthy person in the 7 Kingdoms and that is saying a lot. Elliminate the 1st war and focus on the 2nd, real war. The whole, keeping a good face with the common people for not burning down King's Landing thing is a mummer's farce anyways.


i understand that, but it's pretty easy to say that now that we know the outcome. i believe they discussed this issue prior to the season finale, or maybe i'm just thinking they did. anyway, i believe the concern was that they wouldn't have a big enough force to take on the white walkers, and cersei would've also continued fighting against her. plus, we've seen that her dragons are not invincible, so i don't have issue with how that part of the season played out.

bran on the other hand..
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Postby xXxBretWeedxXx » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:19 pm

theXdXman wrote:i understand that, but it's pretty easy to say that now that we know the outcome. i believe they discussed this issue prior to the season finale, or maybe i'm just thinking they did. anyway, i believe the concern was that they wouldn't have a big enough force to take on the white walkers, and cersei would've also continued fighting against her. plus, we've seen that her dragons are not invincible, so i don't have issue with how that part of the season played out.

bran on the other hand..


No invincible to a mythical being but you saw how effective the scorpion was with Bronn at the helm. Shoulda just went in and lit that bitch on fire and moved on. Anyone who doesn't want to become dragon food will now fight the dead. The main reason the idea of going beyond the wall to get a wight was so stupid was because it wasn't likely to sway Cersei and even if you could, you still couldn't trust her. It's no surprise she's going to backstab this coalition.
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Postby pizzapower518 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:28 pm

I agree with you but Jon and Dany don't know Cersei as well as we do as viewers. It's reasonable for them to think she could be swayed to fight with them from the shock of seeing a wight.

My ultimate gripe is that anyone in Dany's position would want to capitalize on the momentum from the battle in episode 4 and take the throne. If she has the Lannisters that outmatched then an armistice can only work to her disadvantage.
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Postby Frederik » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:30 pm

So Jaime is breaking the news that Cersei is going to betray them when he gets to Winterfell, right? What then?
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Postby judge smails » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:46 pm

pizzapower518 wrote:I agree with you but Jon and Dany don't know Cersei as well as we do as viewers.

Tyrion does.
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Postby neil_morrissey » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:03 am

Frederik wrote:So Jaime is breaking the news that Cersei is going to betray them when he gets to Winterfell, right? What then?


basically all the cunts are converging on winterfell, along with all the special v. steel blades
he'll say that she's pulling a brutus and everyone will be like "yeah nah no shit ey"
there shall be a shit tonne of action and mad fights
then he'll do something that either directly gets cersei killed or contributes to it
and before he croaks he'll get to die in briennes arms fulfilling that prophecy or whatever
basically exactly like the rico/dizzy dynamic from starship troopers if ya think about it
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Postby You'reAHooker » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:06 am

judge smails wrote:
pizzapower518 wrote:I agree with you but Jon and Dany don't know Cersei as well as we do as viewers.

Tyrion does.

Daenerys isn't that keen on listening is she?
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Postby brandonhays » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:38 am

You'reAHooker wrote:
judge smails wrote:
pizzapower518 wrote:I agree with you but Jon and Dany don't know Cersei as well as we do as viewers.

Tyrion does.

Daenerys isn't that keen on listening is she?


Wasn't it his stupid idea to go get the wight that she listened to?
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Postby versace pirate » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:12 pm

brandonhays wrote:
You'reAHooker wrote:
judge smails wrote:
pizzapower518 wrote:I agree with you but Jon and Dany don't know Cersei as well as we do as viewers.

Tyrion does.

Daenerys isn't that keen on listening is she?


Wasn't it his stupid idea to go get the wight that she listened to?

Yep.

Plus when you really think about it, The Hound killed a dragon.
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